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 Matrix Perception

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Ghostmaker
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PostSubject: Matrix Perception   Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:23 pm

Ok so playing Dronemancer yaay! and i was reading the wireless world, just make sure i got it all in perspective... Speaking of which matrix perceptions description page 228 shadowrun 4th edition anniversary says the roll is computer + analyze right... So my question do i get to roll logic with my computer skill roll, like it sounds like a dumb question. But it got me thinking is all, just wanna be sure...
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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:00 pm

Short answer, yes. All skills are modified by Attributes. You get Computer(Logic) + Analyze. The reason they don't say Computer + Logic + Analyze is that the game text assumes that players are aware that in almost all tests (there are exceptions) the test is made using the dice pool for the that skill. Which is the Skill Ranks for the skill + the Attribute Score.

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:31 pm

I find my self in your debt once again Wreck thank you very much the title of this thread was just my first matrix headache so ill have more as i "analyze" Rolling Eyes the wireless world... oh and unwired
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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:20 am

Now I don't know much about 4th ed matrix rules, because well frankly I am rebelling against the wireless matrix.  So I will defer to those with more experience.

But, my understanding of the matrix is that a characters personal attributes do not come into play on matrix tests.  it may be different for a  'mancer but I am under the impression that the computer system trumps personal attributes.

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:26 am

That may have been the case in earlier editions (I haven't played 2nd or 3rd since like 2001), but in 4th it is stated that Skills are a combination of your Skill Rank + Linked Attribute +/- Mods. The Matrix rules do not contradict this, or state that there is any restriction.

Additionally, HeroLabs (official chargen) and Chummer(unofficial chargen) both include character Attributes when calculating dice pools for Technical Skills, which include Computer, Data Search, etc.

Lastly, the alternative would mean that (all else being equal) a Hacker/Decker with Logic 1 is equally as good at hacking as one with Logic 8. If this were the case I would use Logic as a dump-stat for every Decker I make and pump his will and body so he can really handle that Black IC.

But in this case, Matrix Perception uses the character's Computer skill instead of his/her Perception skill.

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:50 am

I am referring to 4th edition.  And I did a little digging, and I still have to respectfully say that I disagree with you based on my, albeit limited, knowledge

According to the Official FAQ (http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/) under general matrix, the first question:

Why buy Hacking when you can default to Logic?
For tests in the Matrix, a program or Matrix attribute is substituted for your regular attributes (Attributes in the Matrix, p.226, SR4A); when defaulting on Hacking, Computer, or most other skills in the Matrix, you default to (program rating – 1), not the normal linked attribute.
Quote :
Grandma Moses has Computer 0 and Edit 6, and wants to touch up an old hologram of her late husband and the slitch he was banging. This is normally a Computer + Edit (2) Test, but since Grandma doesn’t have Computer her Skill defaults to Edit – 1, so she rolls 5 dice on the test.

So again, I am under the impression that a program is substituted for your regular attributes while in the matrix.

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:57 am

Chalk one up for the newbie. @Wreck: St_Nougat is correct. Matrix rules do specifically contradict the generalized rule that all skills are modified by your attribute. In the matrix, your "personal attribute" is actually the program rating that the computer that you're using has.
As a note: when you're "jumped in" to a vehicle or drone, those same rules apply. If you're manually piloting a vehicle, you use your personal attributes. But when you're "jumped in" you substitute the vehicle attributes for whatever actions you're using. That includes perception, which when you're jumped in uses the Sensor rating of the vehicle instead of your Intuition attribute. So there is consistency in the book. And again the rules work that way for "Possession" magical traditions - though this is probably the least often encountered.

Interestingly, in past editions attributes mattered in Matrix. They stopped mattering (directly) in 4th.

The answer to why you need logic: because your maximum skill is bound by your maximum attribute. So to have a computer skill of 3, you need a logic of at least 3.


Last edited by Gala on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:59 am

Thank you Gala,

I was about to submit this article as evidence as well:
http://games-blog.pairodicegames.com/gaming-news/shadowrun-the-logic-of-dissing-logic

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:09 pm

That's a good article, and they bring in some interesting ideas at the end there, though I don't think they're necessary. If I was, personally, GMing a game where someone tried to play a kiddie hacker, I would start to enforce degredation rules. But since most hackers are "properly built" in terms of having a proper logic and skillset, I generally ignore degredation rules, since a "proper" hacker will be spending their free time maintaining their programs, which a kiddie hacker would be unable.

End of the discussion, though, is this: while the attribute itself is not directly used in game, the "proper" build for a hacker hasn't changed, and the reason that's still a "proper" build is completely appropriate in 4, and 4A just as it was in 3 and earlier. A hacker needs a high logic, even if it's not necessary for the purposes of hacking dice pools. They need high skills (skills are capped at linked attribute), the need to build programs (logic is used in this dice pool), and finally, they need to be able to convince a GM to approve their character. And I would require an RP reason, in the back story, to allow a character like a kiddie-hacker; and I would adjudicate a higher degree of compliance with the matrix rules (specifically degradation rules) on a character with that kind of a build.
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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:12 pm

Hey Gala,
I'm showing my ignorance of SR4A here a little bit, but you keep mentioning that skills are capped at the attributes.  I think I missed that rule, can you let me know where it is?

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:51 pm

Ugh - that's proof of my age, and it creeps in from time to time. Skill caps were at attributes in prior editions; but that did not carry over in to 4 or 4A. Thanks for making me check on that. Now I have to wonder what other rules I've forgotten are "old" rules...
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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:58 pm

They weren't capped in 3rd (and I believe second), but you had to pay more to raise them if they were higher than your attribute.

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:26 pm

I stand thoroughly corrected. Very Happy

So, if a player is willing to risk everything on viruses by constantly buying all of their patches from warez sites they can have a logic 1. The only thing a high logic is good for is software/hardware development?

That is sad...

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:36 pm

thank u all for  hashing this out.aside from other obvious reasons i was wondering why i was so hard go make one the intell thing is confusing that said i think i done good... but i still got more questions thanks all
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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:58 pm

So being so utterly wrong about matrix skill usage has been bugging me. I've been delving into all that is the matrix in SR4 and found the reason (other than a faulty memory) for my mistake.

UN: Page 39
Using Attributes

This entry describes using programs and complex forms similarly as spell force. Meaning that the test is made using the character's Skill + Attribute and the Rating of the program caps the number of hits (not net hits) per test roll.

Some vindication at least. cheers

But as this is an alternate rule, and not part of the core book, it has to be discussed between the GM and the Player before hand.

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PostSubject: Re: Matrix Perception   Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:05 pm

you know what Wreck i thought that was a standing rule im sooo stupid that's what i read and rolled but i was tolled that was wrong and it is if its an option i certainly did not ask jagger just rolled so i feel better now too lol good face save research
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