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 Maximum "Augmented" Attributes

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Gala
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PostSubject: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:18 pm

Ok, I feel a little silly, but it turns out that in SR4 (or perhaps 4-A, since that's the only version of SR4 that I still have), the Natural maximum and the Augmented maximum for Attributes is entirely racial, and not dependent on the amount that the player has raised their Attributes themselves. So, what this means, theoretically, is that a character could quite easily have a starting character which looked something like this:

Human
Strength: 1/9 (1 Natural, +4 Muscle Augmentation, +4 Adept Power: Improved Attribute)
Agility: 1/5 Boost-9 (1 Natural, +4 Muscle Toner, Adept Power: Boost Attribute)

Keep in mind, temporary "improvements" to attributes are limited by "Augmented Maximum" as well, which means that a Magician with Body=1 could MUCH CHEAPER than raising Body, buy a sustaining focus, and carry around a permanent spell of "Improve Attribute - Body" at force X (where X is no greater tahn the force of their sustaining focus), which would give them a Body attribute of 1+(Hits). Also, the "Boost" Cyberware and Adept powers, which are generally cheaper than the permanent brothers, can take a character's temporary attribute up to the racial Augmented Maximum.

Where my previous understanding (based on the older rules, no apparently outdated) was that your "Augmented Maximum Attribute" was defined as your "Current Attribute" times 1.5.
So, word out to the GMs, this is apparently outdated...!
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:37 pm

Really? No comments? Am I really that far behind?

And, if I am that far behind, then where's the ribbing? Bring it on kids!
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:54 pm

Actually, I thought the 1.5 rule still applied. I guess I'm in the same boat as you! This makes min/maxing adepts much more interesting...

Players beware! Surprise rounds would really suck if you have a body 1!

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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:40 am

Yeah, that was kinda my point. And not just Adepts, with things like Adrenaline Pump, you can do precisely the same "more interesting" min/maxing with Cyber or Bioware...

Further, Magicians can do it too. And not just on themselves, like I posted below. Now the Magician can walk in to Combat and boost the tank's lowest physical attribute up to the Racial Max. We can do team min/maxing! Think of all the possibilities with a Sniper, where the team actually has the time to cast spells and stuff! Boost the Agility to max, get a separate spell to boost the Intuition to max, and a third for boosting reaction...
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:01 am

sniper example: Ouch! can you imagine. that is all.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:44 am

This revelation makes mages a lot like Clerics in D&D...not sure how I feel about that.

You'd have to do most of this with cyberware. Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation are pretty expensive, plus you'd have to burn 10 BP getting both of them over rating 3.

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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:00 am

That 10 BP is a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER than buying the attribute up naturally!

Edit:
I disagree that Mages are like D&D Clerics. There are some MAJOR negatives that Shadowrun magic has and D&D magic does not have. Drain, and sustaining negatives. There are specific instances where that is an acceptable price to pay, but only specific ones. Where the Cleric can spit out booster spells until they run out, the Shadowrun Magician has to pay a Drain price for each spell cast, and has to sustain any spell where the affect needs to last.
HOWEVER: With this revelation, the Magical benefits that a Magician can add to the party in specific instances are rather frightening. Snipers is one of them, but certainly not the only one... Think of what an Elven Social Adept could do with a Magician using "Increase Attribute - Charisma"... Elven Racial "Enhanced" max on Charisma is 12; 13 with Exception Attribute, or Gene Therapy... See where we're going with this? Think of what kind of a Tank you could make "Daniel The Troll" with a racial enhanced max on Body of, what, 21? A Magician in the right place at the right time could make "Daniel the Troll" a virtually unstoppable force. Like Juggernaut. Now put that together with the "Cyber-Basher" build, and see what kinds of walls can stand up to "Daniel"?!?
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:11 am

All of this is well and good from a magician, till you think of the force of the spell needed, then the actual test. I will admit, i min/max the hell out of my characters, but to cast something that huge, you'd need to get all the hits possible, and then the force of the spell must equal the augmented attribute, so if 'Daniel the tank' has an 12, that's a force 12 spell... Which is only possible if the magician maxes out his magic stat off the bat, goes for over charge, somehow avoids 8s damage from the drain, and then can sustain it. That's only 1 spell...

Edit: The maximum augmented value body of a troll is 15, 16 with the right quality. Now apply an adept with increase physical attribute, it would cost 12 magic to boost it any further. Since the power specifically says any more over the MAV doubles the cost. And the rules specifically say, can't go over the MAV, hence why it's called Maximum Augmented Value.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:52 am

True. Force must equal Augmented Max. Worse still, the force only gives the maximum amount of additional benefit, so even the force 12 spell doesn't necessarily generate a 12 Body; only a maximum of 12 body, for all that work it could be only a +1 benefit.

But that's not the point of this "max think" session we have going on here. The point is that the current attribute is no longer used when determining a character's Augmented Maximum Attribute. This is a very important point, not just for build differentiation (because this allows people to min their stats, and max them with augmentations - Adept/Cyber are obvious), but for Game-Play as well, when the Magician starts to become a very valuable tool (a tool which you cannot account for on build). This revelation changes the way us "old-schoolers" need to consider our builds. Further, this informs us GMs on how to consider our applicants, and our "threats" (as well as how to build the Threats). Since this updates for us what is theoretically "possible", it also changes what we need to be prepared for.


Last edited by Gala on Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:05 pm

Gala wrote:
I disagree that Mages are like D&D Clerics.

I specifically was meaning that given this "revelation," the buffer builds that most clerics play in D&D fits this concept.

Part of the reason I like Shadowrun is that magic has a draw back. Well, more like "nothing's free."

Yeah, I'll have to look at some of my character concepts and see if I can't push a bit more out of them.

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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:18 pm

Yeah! You're all slacker Min/Maxers!

(You like the rhyme there? Eh? Eh?)
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:54 pm

Elf metatype - 30 BP
Class 2 SURGE (Metagenetic Improvement - Agility) - 10 BP
Exceptional Attribute (Agility) - 20 BP
Restricted Gear (Cyberlimb Agility Enhancement) - 5 BP

Genetic Optimization (Agility) - ¥45,000, Availability 10, .2 Bio Essence
Custom Cyberlimb (Agility 9) - ¥24,000, Availability 10, 1 Cyber Essence
-Cyberlimb Agility Enhancement 6 - ¥1,500, Availability 18R, 6 Capacity
Total: ¥70,500, 1.1 Essence - 15 BP

80 BP and a little over 70 grand gives you 3/10 Natural and 15/15 Augmented Agility for tests with the cybered limb, which can be redlined up to 30 Agility, if you think you can resist 30S damage Razz

You can also trade that RG in for MBW 2 and upgrade to a R6 enhancement later and cheaper, and then you can buy all your combat active skills, too! EFF YOU MAGICIANS! Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:29 pm

Thank you, present presence, for such an adept illustration of the point of this discussion. And unlike any of the potential magic builds, that's cheap. Really cheap.

And, that illustration is precisely why I posted this link. This is an important update/change to the rules that we were all used to. Because by our old understand of the rules, Present Presence's build there couldn't have happened without an Agility of 10. Which would cost an additional 85 build points, bringing that total to 165. And there is nothing cheap about that!
Thanks to an inquisitive player, I was set straight on the new way the rules are to be read. And now we know what to do/plan for.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:09 pm

I also like how you can get 8/8 unencumbered armor for ¥22,400 (5 BP) and 1 Essence, thanks to cyberhands/feet and the insanely dirt cheap armor enhancement. Throw in SURGE'd armor options, FFBA, and STPPP, and you can be a living tank with a shopaholic's partner's budget. This is one of the things I avoid to help with GM's SAN rolls. Metagame-wise, though, it is a really viable option for mages, but it is really asking for the GM to use word of god to summon an accidental satellite laser that chops off your hands and feet after you come out of a high-threat cybeerzombie encounter unscathed. "I blocked all the bullets with my hands and feet! That's what the dice said!" Oh, look, the dice also say rockslide. See ya.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:39 pm

Nice! "Oh, look, the dice also say rockslide!" I love it!

Yeah, there were already some super-munchkin ways to put together cybered characters before. Taking away the limitations that the old-rules had regarding "current" attributes and how the "Maximum Augmented Attributes" were a derived, rather than defined, attribute, has increased the min/max, munchkin, whatever you want to call it, build options to the point of absurdity. At least, for players who want to stretch their GMs' patience and willingness to put up with their character concepts.
The thing that most players don't remember/understand is that the min/max character concepts are not accepted to create suffering, but at the sufferance, of the GM. Which means, the more absurd the player is willing to be with the min/max builds, the more "honed" the target on their head will be from that "accidental satellite laser"... And from the GM side, we need to be aware of the way that the rules are re-written, so that we can prepare ourselves, not just from a game sense (but remember the sufferance mentioned above!!!) for the absurdities that players are willing to submit; and the annoyance that they're willing to create when they die.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximum "Augmented" Attributes   Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:37 pm

Stretch a GM's patience? No, i would never do that, i'd rather piss them off completely, then make them laugh, the complete polarity of the mood shift lends itself to giving some completely awesome remarks.
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