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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 1:44 pm

Actually Kesslan, I've just read the Dumpshock entry carefully, and it further supports my previous statement. Ancient goes to some lengths to point out that there is a difference between "dual-natured" and "Dual Natured" and in this case, Shifters are "dual-natured" and specifically not "Dual Natured". Also, I just checked the entry in Runners companion. Drakes, Naga and Sasquatch are "Dual Natured" while Shifters are "dual-natured". Per your reference to Ancient as an authority on the subject, this actually further clarifies that the book does intend for Shifters not to have the benefits of the Dual Natured critter power.

Per SR3: I remember them being "Dual Natured" in SR3. It was a surprise to me the first time I realized that they are not "Dual Natured" in SR4. As you have witnessed, I have been surprised by other changes in the rules, some of them were significantly surprising (dodge being a big one). The difference here is that I wasn't the one most recently surprised... These rules have changed. Shifters are no longer "Dual Natured", per the Critter power; they are now merely "dual-natured". And there is a difference. Magicians percieving are also "dual-natured" as are Adepts with active powers. Shifters are not the only creature in the SR4 universe which walks around without the benefit of Astral Sight at all times (except per my house rule) despite their active Astral signature.

As per your second Edit: That's what I said (you can look at my previous post if you want... It says there too that I know this has not been updated during the SR4 reprints). The entry for Shifters hasn't changed in SR4 between printings, and as a result I can see no logical nor textual reason to expect that calling them "dual-natured" and excluding the "Dual Natured" power from their Powers list was a mistake. In this case, it looks to be intentional. Every bit of evidence, including all of the original SR4 texts supports the explicit intention that Shifters be excluded from the "Dual Natured" critter power and it's benefits.

Again: My house ruling (yes, it's a house rule) enhances Shifters as written; it does not impede them, as written. My house rule confers some of the benefits of the Dual Natured critter power (though not all); where as written, they receive none.
And again: since there have been reprints, and this has not been edited in the reprint, there is no reason to assume that calling them "dual-natured" as opposed to "Dual Natured" was a mistake. As above: This is particularly poignant when referring to the other entries of Sapient Critters who are "Dual Natured"; and have "Dual Natured" listed not just in their Magic list, but also in their Powers list. Shifters are notably void of "Dual Natured" in their power list, and are only described as "dual-natured" in their magic list. The difference is distinct and intentional.
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 2:27 pm

Seriously? Your nit picking over capitalization rather than the actual written word Gala?

It flat out says dual natured. You don't need to go into it any more than that, especially when they've always been dual natured and if you look at any discussion involving shape shifters for 4E they are constantly refered to as being dual natured.

EDIT: Ergo as RAW they are dual natured. As per your interpretation of RAI they are not. Still a house rule in that regard. Capitalization doesn't change what the entry flat out states clear as day.

EDIT Again: And I still need to know what the range is.
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 3:07 pm

I've taken the discussion to an open discussion for all players. Clearly you and I don't agree. Using the word "dual-natured" in the book is fairly common (adepts are "dual-natured"; but are clearly not subject to the "Dual Natured" power). The benefits of the Critter power "Dual Natured" are limited to those creatures who have "Dual Natured" listed as a power. Shifters do not. Attempting to conclude that their magical description justifies a power which is clearly not there would also ascribe that power to all other things which have that magical description (percieving mages (but not projecting), Adepts, percieving Pixies, etc. the list goes on). The description, as is clear to me, is just that: a description. Without the power, they gain no benefit. Further, there doesn't seem to be any confusion with the author as noted by the lack of capitalization (which is why I brought that up). So: it's not a listed power, and there is no reason for any further confusion based on the magic description.
- That said: I am done discussing it here in this forum. I've made my position clear - and my position is in line with RAW (it's not in the powers list, therefore they don't gain the benefits of the power - quite clear). For the forseeable future, and you may call this a "house rule" if you choose: Shifters are subject to the -2 penalty for physical actions while utilizing Astral Perception as their primary sense. However, as my original "house rule" states: Shifters do gain the benefit of changing their primary sense to Astral Perception at will.


Kesslan is 25 meters from the nearest flash point source. The rest of them range from 25 to 30; but in all cases it's less than 30. They are spread out, and a total of approximately 30 meters apart. This means that the two end point sources form a 90 degree angle from Kesslan.
It's actually really important for you to tell me whether you intend to do this in Astral or physical (call that a hint). Also, I see that your actions are already stated; please consider them carefully (you can call that another hint).
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 3:16 pm

Yet the entry specifically states that Shapeshifters are 'dual natured in both forms'. It's not something you can turn on or off unless you simply have the astral perception power etc. None of which are things Shape Shifters have by default, yet by default they are dual natured. It also makes no sense then, if shifters are not innately dual natured creatures, for me to be able to see into the astral without also taking the Astral Perception power, which I do not have, yet all Shifters can see into the Astral by default? The only way this is possible is with dual natured beings. And I'd argue that as the entry for Shifters specifically states, where no other entry does, that shifters are dual natured in both forms (As opposed to Drakes, which are only dual natured in Drake form if I recall correctly) then by RAW and by RAI they are in fact dual natured.

I'll keep hunting for the critter stats for shape shifters, I cant for the life of me recall which book it's in but it very clearly indicates they have the Dual Natured ability.

And I still need to know the range.

Also as per the Magic entry Shape Shifters can learn Astral Combat and Assessing without being a mage, adept or purchasing Astral Perception. Additionally as per the line you quoted from Sapience:

Those sapient critters with the Dual Natured or Enhanced Senses (Astral Perception) powers may learn Assensing and Astral Combat, but otherwise they cannot learn or use Magic Skills, astrally perceive.

If Shifters are not Dual Natured, and they do not have Enhanced Senses: Astral Perception, then how is it they can learn assenssing and Astral combat, when it's specifically stated under sapience that a sapient critter that isn't dual natured, cannot learn these abilities without being an adept/mage etc first?

Also the entry for shifters was edited and updated to reflect the SR4A book/page references. So if they were not intended to be dual natured they should have corrected that.
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 4:11 pm

In either case Gala, as I've asked for several times now, I still need the range to target (Even if it's just a rough guestimate) so I can account for range factors. The sniper rifle has more than enough range, but the actual range makes all the difference right now between 'it's possible but extremely difficult' and 'it's totally insanely impossible' given that I'm trying to see if I can actually pull it off without having to use a lock on action for vision magnification first (Which would then negate range penalties)

It's been established either way that at bare minimum I face -4 to -5 dice on any test to shoot right now. Range penalties however can take that easily to -10/11.

Given that they then get +4 for having good cover and possibly another +2 for running to their defence rolls means I'm potentially simply wasting my time, and I'd assume that my character is at least sufficiently skilled to tell when it's worth taking a snap shot or simply moving to find a better position. (Note though that thank god it doesn't apply as an additional penalty to my shot. But is rather a bonus to their defence dice pool to dodge. Otherwise my minimum penalty would be -10 before range is taken into account)
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Ghostmaker
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Character Name: ix Sama
Race: Elf
Sex: Male

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 4:50 pm

Im back i got a pc and im back for my next trick im gonna post something great but not sure what yet im working on some stuff but its good to be back Very Happy
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Ghostmaker
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Sex: Male

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 5:30 pm

by the way i wanted LT to position the truck with the back pointing at the general area in front of kess if there is a roll needed ill do that with a post k...?
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 5:33 pm

I did post a response to your question about range. But since you're being mean, and so focused on your arguing as to miss the only actually important thing I posted, I'm going to be petty and not quote it for you. You'll find it in my previous post (I'm not so petty as to not provide guidance).
Also, as a note: You should be careful about your assumptions. They are not always correct...


@Ghost: Yay! PC!
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 6:06 pm

Except that my skill with sniper rifles is 5, which is 1 level below 'elite'. At that level you generally get a pretty good idea of your ability to hit a target. Given that I play airsoft, paintball and have competed with actual firearms I've learned when I might have a chance vs when I might not. (Either because the target is out of range, moving too fast through cover etc). I'm not master marksman but you can generally get a good idea if it's going to be an 'impossible shot' or not if you just snap off a quick shot vs taking the time to set up and line up your target (in this case use the 'lock on' action for magnification and then fire).

Since 'short range' for a sniper rifle is 150 meters however and it's 'roughly' 25-30m that's well within short range so there's no modifier (Though it would be at least long range for pistols at the moment).

I'm assuming, since I've been assenssing and didn't specify a switch to physical I'm still 'focused' on the astral using your rules. So physical I'd be dealing with -3 Visual, -2 Audio, for a total of -5, +2 for smartlink, 0 modifier for lighting (As it's not pitch black and I have low-light vision), and 0 modifier for range, leaving me with a pool of 9 dice. Astral I'm facing -2 Dice astral, -2 dice Audio, -0 dice range, -0 dice lighting for a total of 8 dice, just to be clear I'm not basing the assumption on using Astral for extra dice as I'd actually get 1 more using physical.

That said arguably I shouldn't even have the assensing skill or the ability to see astral if I'm not dual natured, as I don't have the Astral Perception power, and as such shouldn't even be able to see anything on the astral at all, so I don't know how you want to rule on that one. I could I suppose simply sort of retro it in after saving up enough Karma to buy up my magic stat, which in turn would give me a power point to buy the power with. Or I can simply shed enough existing powers to work in the power point required for astral perception. In either case it's an extremely important point if your ruling I suffer all the downsides of being dual natured, without the benefit of being dual natured as then I'm blind deaf and dumb to all astral based threats that can harm me unless I take the astral perception power.



@Ghost: Glad you finally got your PC back bud, been missing your posts!

Edit: Roll has been posted assuming astral perception power is to be purchased later on.
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 6:37 pm

You can purchase the Astral Perception power if you wish, but I don't recommend it. My House Rule has already accounted for that: Shifters, according to my House Rule, have a better version of Astral Perception (it's at-will), with precisely the same effect.


I agree that you could use your Rifles Skill as a supplemental roll to a Perception check if you wanted to. Using the supplemental roll rules, you would roll your sniper skill + attribute, and add half the successes as a dice-pool modifier for your perception check. If you'd asked, I would have encouraged it. That's not automatic though.


Thank you for the reminder that you're already using Astral (I had forgotten as of my previous perception-response for you). I have additional data for you, in that case. The point-sources for the four attackers do not have an astral signature. There are only two possible conclusions, and they both come up immediately: Either they are drones, or they're Masking. You couldn't see them physically well enough to know the difference.
Since this was my mistake: you may make some edits if needed. But make sure you let me know what you've updated.
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 8:01 pm

WHen I say a snap shot I mean just a literal, swing up and fire the moment you see your sights over/near a target. It's basically half way to a quick draw (Which I can't do with this character while using a rifle, due to the lack of the appropriate Martial Arts Maneuver or adept power). If they had no astral signatures I'd have to use normal sight to do that with instead but since the dice roll difference is only another +1 dice (Since on the physical the snap shot would be aided by the smartlink) I might as well just let the roll stand as i'm not to likely to get an extra hit on the dice.

Drones still show up on the astral though, but they are 'muted' colours, the same as anything else that's lifeless. Might be able to pick them out on the astral but it would be hard depending on the backdrop. Right now, personally I'd they'd be obvious as an 'absence' of life that blocks the astral signatures behind it as we are in a forest. If we were in a city where mostly everything around is inanimate then they would blend in considerably I suppose. Astral sight still lets you see walls and such but it's in grades similar to thermal vision as they don't have an aura. If this wasn't the case some one using astral sight to get around would always be tripping etc and thus face some sort of movement penalty. Either way it's a GM call on that since there's honestly no real good examples of Astral Space used in rules that I've ever seen and the description is still a little vague. It's clear though that it's a 'psychic' sense however as blind people can still see into the astral.
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyThu Jul 12, 2012 3:44 am

I knew what you meant by "snap shot". I am not personally a rifles expert; nor any firearm, really. But I've been working with SR for long enough (measured in tens of years now...) that I am quite familiar with the terminologies, at the very least. I've had many a moment where I had to ask a player "Ummm... I presume that's a fairly standard phrase; but I've never heard it. Please explain?" My experience: You do that enough times, and you get a fairly good feel for most of the terms and phrases of the parts of the game you're interacting with the most. Firearms, of course, is pretty high up there in the SR genre.

I know they do; it was late, and I was tired. It's not so much that they're invisible as you don't see any distinct astral signatures where there should be some (particularly considering the guys that went in to the woods were active, not just mundanes (at least the troll was)). Perhaps if you got closer you would see the signature, if there are drones. But right now you're too busy, there is a backdrop of living things, and it's easy for a mundane object to fade in to invisibility. As stated below: Kesslan's conclusion is that either they're drones or they're masking. There are actually other possibilities. Example: the Critter/Spirit power "Concealment" is effective on the Astral as well as physical. I'm sure there are others, but I'm just waking up now and can't think of any.
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyThu Jul 12, 2012 10:47 am

Well the simplest answer is usually the right one, that being that they are probably some sort of drone. Of course that's not always the case as we already know were up against some pretty high level people but squads made entirely of initiated awakened are highly unusual in the 6th world. If it's the latter then all I can say is were in serious trouble, since that usually implies a group on the level with Tir Ghosts or the highest tier of Azlan black ops etc. Not a comforting thought but either way the shot is made.
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Jagger
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyThu Jul 12, 2012 2:34 pm

Gala, for sake of clarification: is Kesslan between the truck and the shooters? More specifically, is he between Seij and the shooters?
As Seij is not in an advantageous position for a 'finesse' shot, I am considering using suppressive fire. I do not, of course, want to risk putting a slug in our favorite jaguar in the process.

@Ghostmaker: Congrats on your PC acquisition!
Very Happy
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Ghostmaker
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyThu Jul 12, 2012 4:51 pm

thanks dude
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Jagger
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptySat Jul 14, 2012 8:12 am

Gala, I wasn't sure how far it was from Seij's original position to the truck. If need be I will edit the post if the distance is too great to reach in one pass.
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyMon Jul 16, 2012 5:23 pm

Hi all - I'm out of town this week. I will post when I can...
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Ghostmaker
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyMon Jul 16, 2012 5:25 pm

NP
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyTue Jul 17, 2012 8:57 pm

@Darkon: Specter is up.
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Gala
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Gala


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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 11:36 am

@Darkon: You around? Should we skip over you? Specter's up... I know she had a low Init - but the round's finally come to an end... It's time!
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyWed Jul 25, 2012 3:00 pm

Ok, Kesslan: Since Darkon is not posting, you can go ahead and post the rest of your post - you've been holding the remainder pending Darkon's post. Let me know if you need anything further from me.
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Darkon
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyThu Jul 26, 2012 12:21 pm

I am sorry. I completely missed that it was my turn. And the message I wrote last night did not come through either. Mad

Gala, only physical spells means I can only use levitation from my repertoir, either that or pysical mask. Is that correct?
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Ghostmaker
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyThu Jul 26, 2012 1:28 pm

Having trouble keeping up let me know like when I go I don't remember last turns action I should have let the truck idk
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Jagger
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyThu Jul 26, 2012 3:14 pm

@Darkon
Well I don't think I'm giving you any competition on glitch scenarios, but I thought mine was funny.
cheers
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Ghostmaker
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 24 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 2:56 am

Ill post up this afternoon after work
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