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| | | Shifters: "dual-natured" versus "Dual Natured" |  |
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Gala
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| | Subject: Shifters: "dual-natured" versus "Dual Natured" Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:46 pm | |
| So a fellow GM and I have recently come to a spot where there seems to be some confusion in the SR4 rules. The following is a summary of the discussion to-date. 1. "dual-natured" is a necessary description used in SR4 to describe a being which is active on both the Physical and Astral planes simultaneously. The description is first given words in the Auras and Astral forms section, and further clarified in the Astral Perception section. In Astral Perception, it states that "A character using astral perception is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously." Point: From this I draw a definition. "dual-natured" = A character is considered dual-natured when active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously. - "Auras and Astral Forms; SR4A P.191":
AURAS AND ASTRAL FORMS
Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful. Anything active on the astral plane has a tangible astral form— projecting magicians, spirits, dual-natured beings, and so on. Astral forms are more colorful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally “real.” The Earth has an astral form, and many regard this as proof that the planet is a living entity apart from the creatures that inhabit
its surface.
- "Astral Perception; SR4A P.191":
ASTRAL PERCEPTION
Many Awakened characters can perceive the astral plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. It is the primary sense used in the astral plane; it shows auras, allowing magicians to examine living creatures in the physical world as well as creatures who live on the astral plane. Astral Perception is availableto characters who take the Magician quality during character generation (p.91), or to adepts and mystic adepts who buy the Astral Perception power (p.195). It takes a Simple Action to shift one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously.
While astral perception allows an Awakened character to sense the astral plane, actually interpreting what is sensed takes practice. Interpreting auras to gain information about the person or thing to whom they belong is called Assensing. A magician who wishes to learn more about an aura must make an Assensing + Intuition test, with the number of hits determining how much the magician learns, as outlined on the Assensing Table (at right). Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.).
Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed). An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is trying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations, an Assensing Test is made.
By assensing something’s aura, a magician can gain information.
The auras of living beings show their general health, emotions, and magical nature (if any). Enchanted objects show their magical nature. Non-magical and non-living objects have only gray, lackluster shadows rather than auras, but pick up impressions from being in contact with living auras. Assensing can read any impressions left behind on an object. Spells cast upon an individual show up as a separate aura surrounding that person for the duration of the spell. Once a spell has been rendered permanent, the aura is no longer present. It is occasionally possible to see the traces that magic spells leave behind in a target’s aura; see Astral Signatures for more information. Whenever you have to perform a physical, non-magical task (shooting a gun, driving a car, and so forth) while astrally perceiving, you su er a –2 dice pool penalty. While astrally perceiving, a magician can cast mana spells at astral opponents. Other astral forms can engage an astrally perceiving magician in astral combat (p.193) or cast mana spells at him as well.
Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can “hear” in astral space.
- "Astral Combat; SR4A P.193":
ASTRAL COMBAT
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill. There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p.199), and mana spells are the only options for astral combat. Most astral combat damage is based on the character’s astral strength (Charisma), as noted on the Astral Combat table. Damage inflicted from astral combat attacks can be either Stun or Physical (attacker’s choice). Astral objects like barriers can only be affected by Physical damage.
2. "Dual Natured" is a specifically described Critter power. For the Critters who have the power of "Dual Natured" it is listed in their Powers list. - "Dual Natured; SR4A P.294":
DUAL NATURED
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
A critter that is dual natured is active in the astral plane and can affect astral beings as well as physical ones. Dual natured creatures have the ability to perceive and interact with the astral plane similar to characters using astral perception (see Astral Perception, p.191). However, innate dual nature is different from astral perception in that dual natured critters can always sense both the physical and astral worlds without having to shift back and forth. Their minds process a composite of astral impressions and normal physical senses; consequently, dual natured critters do not suffer the –2 dice pool modifier for interacting with the physical world while astrally perceiving.
3. In SR3, Shifters were most assuredly "Dual Natured" with all of the negatives and benefits. As with other things between SR3 and SR4 (not to mention SR4A) there have been many changes, some of which don't make the best sense. We've had discussions about this in the past. Some of them were nearly universally unnoticed by myself and most of the GMs I worked with (on here included) until some new player to the site pointed out the difference between the book and our application of the rules (thank you new players; do not hesitate to speak up when you notice something!). 4. In SR4, the description is somewhat outstanding in this matter. While we know Shapeshifters to be inherently magical, and possessing an infinitely available power to change shape, as well as innate Astral Perception capacity, the writing of the Runner's Companion entry seems to have chosen to list them as "dual-natured" rather than "Dual Natured". Per the above definitions: this would suggest that the authors intended for Shifters to be void in the benefits of the "Dual Natured" Critter power; unfortunately subjecting them to the negatives of being permanently astrally active, without the benefit of being permanently astrally aware. - "Creating a Shape Shifter; Runner's Companion P.86":
CREATING A SHAPESHIFTER CHARACTER
As a variety of sapient species capable of taking metahuman form, shapeshifters warrant a section of their own providing gamemasters and players the rules necessary to build and play such characters in their games. Take the time to read the rules carefully; shapeshifter characters may prove potentially disruptive and unbalancing in some games. Incorporating a shapeshifter into a campaign can be an excellent roleplaying challenge given their dualistic nature.
Shapeshifters are built just like other characters, using the process detailed in SR4A. Instead of a metatype, however, shifters choose a shifter type from the options given below and consult the Shapehifter Type Attribute Table (below) for their racial attribute minimums and maximums. These attribute values apply for both the shapeshifter’s human and metahuman forms. In addition, shifter characters must abide by the special conditions outlined below.
- "Shifter Powers; Runner's Companion P.87":
Shifter Powers
All shapeshifters start out with the Shift (Human), Regeneration, and Sapience powers, as well as the weaknesses Allergy (Silver, Severe) and Vulnerability (Silver). Their Natural Weapons (Claws/Bite: DV Str/2 + 2, AP 0) are usually only available in their critter form. Shapeshifter characters also have Enhanced Senses that they retain in both their animal and human forms, as noted in the Shapeshifter Attribute Table (p. 86).
- "Magic; Runner's Companion; P.87":
Magic
Every shapeshifter begins the game with a Magic attribute of 1, which may be increased with BP or Karma as any other attribute to a maximum of 6 (+ initiate grade), as normal, and is used for any tests involving its innate powers. If a shapeshifter’s Magic attribute goes to 0, it reverts to its animal form and loses the use of all its powers except Sapience, Natural Weapons, and Enhanced Senses, if any. Shapeshifters are Awakened but they are not magicians. Shapeshifters are dual-natured beings in both forms, and, as such, they may learn Assensing and Astral Combat, but otherwise they cannot learn or use Magic Skills, astrally project, initiate, or bond foci unless they take an appropriate quality such as Adept, Astral
Sight, Magician, or Mystic Adept.
Most shapeshifters follow magical traditions similar to metahumans in their native area or according to their upbringing. It is very rare for shapeshi ers to possess a mentor spirit different than their animal type. Spirits of Man summoned by shapeshifters tend to resemble members of their own species. A shapeshifter’s aura always reveals its true form—that of an animal, not a metahuman. Shapeshifter magicians may use Masking to conceal their true auras. Adept powers function no matter what form the character is in.
4a. The Runner's Companion has been reprinted. There have not been any updates to the above descriptions and rules. I assume that indicates that they are intended to be read, and used, as written. This means that because there is no entry for "Dual Natured" in the Powers section, the SR4 Shifters are not intended to have the benefits of the "Dual Natured" Critter power. 5. There are other PC-playable Critters in Runner's Companion. Some of them are "Dual Natured"; and their Powers description includes the power of "Dual Natured". In addition, the section on Magic for the Critters includes specific verbage for the "Dual Natured" power. This is distinct from the Shifter entries, which come next in Runner's Companion. - "Naga; Runner's Companion P.84":
Naga
These critters possess no hands, which makes wielding and manipulating most gear di cult—most naga magicians learn the Magic Fingers spell to compensate. Naga who interact with metahuman society develop su cient skill with computers to electronically open automated doors and devices using their commlinks. Nagas may be “milked” for one dose of their venom (see Naga Venom, p. 84, Arsenal) every hour.
Powers: Armor (2/3), Dual Natured, Guard, Natural Weapon (Bite: DV (Str/2)P, AP 0), Sapience, Venom
Weaknesses: Uneducated
- "Sasquatch; Runner's Companion P.84":
Sasquatch
Linguasofts are very valuable for sasquatches, as sign-to-speech, sign-to-text, text-to-sign, and speech-to-sign patches can be easily downloaded for free from the Matrix. This means a sasquatch can use AR gloves with an appropriate linguasoft to translate their sign language into relevant text or computer-generated speech for the language on the linguasoft. If the sasquatch has an image link and the appropriate linguasoft, any text they see or speech they hear in the language can be translated into animated sign language in their image link. This enables erudite, tech-savvy sasquatches to “speak” to other metahumans without much trouble.
Powers: Dual Natured, Mimicry, Sapience
Weaknesses: Uneducated
- "Sapient Critter Magic; Runner's Companion P.85":
Magic
Every sapient critter begins the game with a Magic attribute of 1, which may be increased with BP or Karma as any other attribute to a maximum of 6 (+ initiate grade), as normal, and is used for any tests involving its innate powers. If a sapient critter’s Magic attribute goes to 0, it loses the use of all its powers except Sapience, Natural Weapons, and Armor, if any. Sapient critters are Awakened, but they are not magicians. Those sapient critters with the Dual Natured or Enhanced Senses
(Astral Perception) powers may learn Assensing and Astral Combat, but otherwise they cannot learn or use Magic Skills, astrally perceive or project, initiate, or bond foci unless they take an appropriate quality such as Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, or Mystic Adept.
Most sapient critters follow magical traditions similar to metahumans in their native area or according to their upbringing. Some especially well-developed cultures, like the Naga Kingdom or the Korrigan, might follow their own unique traditions. Spirits of Man summoned by sapient critters tend to resemble members of their own species.
6. There is a "Dumpshock" forum which was written on the subject. In it, several other Players state conclusively that Shifters are in fact "Dual Natured". Later in the forum, "Ancient History" who was an author in SR4 (though we don't know if he specifically contributed to these entries) makes a few statements. In it, I understand him to indicate that the authors did, in fact, differentiate between "dual-natured" and "Dual Natured". He does not (unfortunately) offer an opinion as to whether Shapeshifters are one or the other - his post is in reference to the actual power of "Dual Natured". http://forums.dumpshock.com/lofiversion/index.php/t29195.html | |
| | | | Gala
Corprate CEO
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Sex: Female
| | Subject: Re: Shifters: "dual-natured" versus "Dual Natured" Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:55 pm | |
| I don't suppose I need to clarify my position... But I will just the same:
I am of the opinion that Shifters are "dual-natured" and not "Dual Natured". That is to say: Shifters are bereft of the benefits of the "Dual Natured" Critter power; while being vulnerable to their permanent "dual-natured" stature.
To that end: I have made a "house ruling" for the purposes of my games. I have ruled that Shifters actually gain some of the benefits of the "Dual Natured" Critter power, though not all: they are permanently Astrally active, and do not have to "turn on" their Astral Perception. Unlike "Dual Natured" Critters, according to my house rule, Shifters do not have Astral Information given to them at all times, in conjunction with their Perception rolls: instead, they must announce that they are "paying attention" to the Astral; and are subject to the -2 penalties for Physical Actions while viewing in the Astral.
- Summary: in my House Rule Shifters may switch their perception from Physical to Astral at will; but are still subject to the normal player penalty of -2 for physical actions while utilizing Astral Perception as their primary perception mode.
Further: I take it as fairly obvious that the above descriptions taken either in agregate or distinctly state that Shifters are not subject to the benefits of the "Dual Natured" Critter power. But: that is simply my position.
I have written this forum so that you players/GMs can contribute to the discussion! Please do!
[EDIT] In an attempt to "re-clarify" my position:
Rules as written: Their powers section is notably lacking the "Dual Natured" entry.
My take-away: Therefore, they do not gain the benefit of the "Dual Natured" power.
Rules as written: Their magical description shows that they are, in fact, "dual-natured".
My take-away: Therefore, they are permanently astrally active.
In summation: Since the book does differentiate between situations where something is astrally active and thus "dual-natured", and critters which have a power called "Dual Natured", there does not seem to be any way to conclude that Shifters are ascribed the benefits of the power of "Dual Natured". Particularly because it is not in their powers list. | |
| | | | Kesslan
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| | Subject: Re: Shifters: "dual-natured" versus "Dual Natured" Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:06 pm | |
| Well since I pointed it out in the OCC thread, I'll point it out here too.
As per the entry under magic it specifically states that Shifters are dual natured in both forms.
As per the Sentient ability, if Shifters were merely sentient and not dual-natured, then they would be unable to learn to assense or use astral combat without first having to be an adept, mage, mystic adept or similar. This is specifically stated under the rules for sentient creatures. However the entry for Shifters specifically states that they CAN learn these abilities even without being an adept/mage etc. The only ones that can do this are those that are Dual Natured.
In the end all it boils down to is if they get the -2 or not because that's the sole benefit of being dual natured that isn't granted to them already. Everything else is strictly a downside. EG; Constant vulnerability to attacks from the astral, the ability to be physically forced through astral barriers and thus knocked out instantly, and let's not forget what FAB III does to dual natured creatures, considering it was used to wipe out both the entire ghoul colony in Chicago along with quite a few insect spirits. Among a few other things.
Ultimately there is no 'grade' of dual natured. You either are, or your not. The only time there is any difference is if you have the ability to switch it off (Astral perception powers, certain drugs etc).
This also has an impact on their ability to perceive and combat astral threats, as if they are argued to be dual natured, without having the benefit of actually being dual natured, then they are visible on the astral at all times, and completely unaware of any and all astral based threats that can kill them unless they specifically become adepts and purchase the astral perception power or become mages | |
| | | | Gala
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| | Subject: Re: Shifters: "dual-natured" versus "Dual Natured" Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:27 pm | |
| - Kesslan wrote:
- In the end all it boils down to is if they get the -2 or not because that's the sole benefit of being dual natured that isn't granted to them already.
Actually, I would argue (though this is purely subjective) that the largest benefit of the "Dual Natured" power is not the -2 penalty, but that the power specifically states that they perceive the Astral plane in one large package with all other perception. What that means in game terms is simply that Astral Perception details and Physical Perception details are taken together. From a game-play perspective, I would consider that to be far more important than the -2 penalty. The scenario is this: You're walking down the street. You see a man. He appears physically normal; yet he is astrally active. It's as simple as that. You'll need an Assensing test to determine what it is which is causing his aura to "light up" but you automatically know that he is astrally active. There's no "I switch to Astral, what do I see?". Another scenario: As combat begins, you yell: "Which of them is a magician?!?" Where a "Dual Natured" Critter wouldn't ever even think to have to yell that. They already know. "Geek the Mage" is that much faster. Relative to what I consider to be the upside of "Dual Natured" I would consider the -2 penalty to be effectively irrelevant. The truth is that the automatic knowledge of the presence all things magical is such a major benefit... But then again, that is (as I stated myself) purely subjective, and my opinion. As for the rest of your response: I completely understand the confusion. I've been confused about it many more times than I would like to admit; which is entirely why I was so well prepared for this discussion. I've been through all of those entries which I quote in my initial post myself, many times. Unfortunately, the confusion, and your interpretation of the confusing portions, are not actually "Rules As Written" (RAW). The RAW for the Shifter is simply this: "Dual Natured" is a Critter Power which Shapeshifters do not have. That power grants the inclusion of all Astral Perception in all Perception at all times (and excludes those Critters from the -2 penalty). By comparison; their magical description of "dual-natured" is one which is similarly used in many other circumstances in the various books to describe something which is active on both the Astral and Physical planes - that description does not inherently include the "Dual Natured" critter power (and specifically excludes it in most cases). It's Confusing:"Shapeshifters are Awakened but they are not magicians. Shapeshifters are dual-natured beings in both forms, and, as such, they may learn Assensing and Astral Combat, but otherwise they cannot learn or use Magic Skills, astrally project, initiate, or bond foci unless they take an appropriate quality such as Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, or Mystic Adept." - You're absolutely correct: that entire statement is confusing. In fact, it seems to directly contradict itself. In one sentence, it states that they may learn Assensing. In the next, it states that they cannot use Magic Skills without taking Astral Sight (or other magical qualities). So... Huh? They can Assense without Astral Sight? How does that make sense? There is no doubt that this is a confusing statement. And while I understand the conclusion that you've drawn from the above confusing statement (your conclusion: Shifters have "Dual Natured" critter power), I don't agree. And as written, neither does the book. Since that portion is confusing: I think it warrants a House Rule, to alleviate the affects of that confusion during game-play. I have created a "House Rule" which effectively grants an at-will version the power of Enhanced Senses (Astral Sight). Other GM's can respond to this confusing statement in their own way. And, I believe, they should respond to this confusion (which is why I did, oh so long ago) when they are GMing games which have/allow Shapeshifters. | |
| | | | Kesslan
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| | Subject: Re: Shifters: "dual-natured" versus "Dual Natured" Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:07 am | |
| Well I put the question to the official sr4 bboards and so far the clear opinion is that Shapeshifters are, as per fluff and RAW, dual-natured and thus have the corresponding trait.
Still waiting on trying to get a response directly from Catalyst mind you. | |
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