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 Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat

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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:47 pm

It's actually now been closer to a day and a half.

Folk did get a few hours of peace after the drop off at The Exchange (More than just a few mind you but folk were still doing a fair bit of running around for a little while).

My impression had been that at least part of a day had been spent at the clinic given that Spawn had required treatment as did a few other people and if I recall correctly Sha'hgrim actually slept there and Darkon spent a fair bit of time with the police so that would make it closer to coming up on day 3.

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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Oh my. That long? My poor girls. Though in all this time, there had not really been an opportunity to go out and talk to that troll. Or was it a dwarf? No that was the gnome. Alas, it's so late here it's early (close to 4am). I think I will go to bed now and think about this with a less scrambled brain in the morning.

I bid thee all a good night.

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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:42 pm

It's all good bud!

I'll try to do another summary of clues found to date once your present negotiations for a place to stay are over.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:10 pm

Just as an FYI as it's come up in discussion with several different people I put in the following HR in regards to Carbon-Boron, Kevlar Threading and Delta-Amyloid:

Carbon-Boron, Kevlar Threading and Delta-Amyloid modifications may be applied to armour well as clothing, however layered protection rules apply. This means the armour is not cumulative with other worn armour save for the effects of encumbrance. Only the highest rating applies to actual protection provided. As a house rule, this modification may be added to Secure Tech PPP, but still counts as layering in regards to the armour provided by the PPP pieces it is applied to (So if you add Carbon-Boron to a forearm guard the new armour rating for the forearm guards is now +1/+2 but encumbrance is calculated as if it was 1/3)

The main reason for this is because of 2 things:
1) The mention of layering is odd at best as it could imply two different things.
2) Allowed to stack with all types of armored clothing without any limitation, the armored clothing could easily match or exceed actual armor suits in terms of protection (This includes SWAT armor for example) and yet retain it's normal apperance. Which seems inherently wrong to me.
3) Once some more ingame time passes (Bout a year or so) I'll probably alter the HR to allow ONE of the mods to be added to any suit and stack as per it's normal value (Much like a shield. Think of it as using the Bone lacing/Bone Augmentation rules but for armor). This would in turn mimic advances in technology.
4) Taken strictly the entry for the modifications in question limits them specifically to non armored clothing and the specific piece of gear called armor clothes page 326 SR4A (Armor of 4/0). This seems odd in comparison to the actual class of Armored Clothing.

The reason I allow it to be added to secure tech is because secure tech can be stacked with any other armour or clothing and adds it's own bulk meaning the protection boosts are shared among all suits rather than leaving actual full armour suits in the dust.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:02 am

Ok all, I'm back. Sorry for any posting delays my time away may have caused.

Give me a couple of hours to catch up, and I'll have a post in today!
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:10 am

Welcome back Gala. Enjoy your trip?
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:58 am

No worries Gala,

I specifically paused at this point to let you get some input in on the negotiations as your pets have been brought into the equation and I felt you needed to have a say before things went any further. Especially as the NPC in question has no idea what the hell such exotic pets even eat.

Darkon: On a note on pushing for negotiations to get 'more stuff' out of NPCs btw, at least where I'm concerned as a GM this is a hole in the NPC's knowledge you found (that wasn't even intentional on my part) that you can exploit to get a few extra concessions out of him for, such as potentially upgrading your 'necessities' quality for the stay in regards to food boosted a level or two for the same cost. Though it's not entirely exclusive of you bargaining the cost down too but he will become increasingly resilient as it starts becoming something that goes from him benefiting to simply loosing out on the deal. That said some NPCs you can 'break' and get away with it though they won't like you at all for it

EG: The remake of True Grit where the girl bargains so well with the shop keeper that the next time she tries to bargain for a horse he stops dead in the middle of his argument and says: "Wait, are we bargaining again?!" with a look of terror on his face before it cuts to the scene of her simply leaving with the horse in question.



As a note, after some rather at times heated discussion with Gala over the whole armor modification thing and some serious digging around on the forums, most of which boiled right down to the same argument over the specific citation of Armor Clothing page 326 SR4A I came across a reference to a thread here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34632&#entry1055269

In this situation they specifically ask the author of Attitude questions in regards to the modifications. In this instance it's clear that the RAW while still somewhat debatable was poorly written regardless as according to the author:
Delta-Amyloid, Carbon-Boron and Kevlar Threading are mutually exclusive.
They can be added to 'designer armor clothing' (IE Globetrotter etc). This would exclude suits like Armor Jacket etc.
It's more or less implied that they can not be added to individual pieces of armor that make up a whole set to stack the bonuses. IE Pants/Jacket/Shirt that equals a suit you can apply the modification but it only adds the flat bonus to the total set, rather than adding to each individual piece, which is then combined for the total.

IE: If you have a jacket that adds 4/1, a shirt that adds 2/1 and pants that add 2/2 you get a set that works out to 8/4. Applying Delta-Amyloid (+3/1) would raise it to 11/5 not 17/7
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:32 am

Kesslan wrote:
Just as an FYI as it's come up in discussion with several different people I put in the following HR in regards to Carbon-Boron, Kevlar Threading and Delta-Amyloid:

Carbon-Boron, Kevlar Threading and Delta-Amyloid modifications may be applied to armour well as clothing, however layered protection rules apply. This means the armour is not cumulative with other worn armour save for the effects of encumbrance. Only the highest rating applies to actual protection provided. As a house rule, this modification may be added to Secure Tech PPP, but still counts as layering in regards to the armour provided by the PPP pieces it is applied to (So if you add Carbon-Boron to a forearm guard the new armour rating for the forearm guards is now +1/+2 but encumbrance is calculated as if it was 1/3)

The main reason for this is because of 2 things:
1) The mention of layering is odd at best as it could imply two different things.
2) Allowed to stack with all types of armored clothing without any limitation, the armored clothing could easily match or exceed actual armor suits in terms of protection (This includes SWAT armor for example) and yet retain it's normal apperance. Which seems inherently wrong to me.
3) Once some more ingame time passes (Bout a year or so) I'll probably alter the HR to allow ONE of the mods to be added to any suit and stack as per it's normal value (Much like a shield. Think of it as using the Bone lacing/Bone Augmentation rules but for armor). This would in turn mimic advances in technology.
4) Taken strictly the entry for the modifications in question limits them specifically to non armored clothing and the specific piece of gear called armor clothes page 326 SR4A (Armor of 4/0). This seems odd in comparison to the actual class of Armored Clothing.

The reason I allow it to be added to secure tech is because secure tech can be stacked with any other armour or clothing and adds it's own bulk meaning the protection boosts are shared among all suits rather than leaving actual full armour suits in the dust.

I agree with what you have laid out.

In regards to FFBA, where that armor is not affected by the layering rules (only take the highest), instead it's added to the other armor/clothing's B/I values.
ie. Mortimer of London Greatcoat(which are allowed the mods) with any one of the three mods added to it. I still agree, from our earlier PM's, that adding all three mods to a single piece of armor is a serious attempt at munchkinism and doesn't make sense.

What looks like is allowed per RAW, Delta-Amyloid(or one of the other two) added to the Greatcoat while wearing the FFBA. The case of layered armor shouldn't apply here from what I can see. Yeah it's still a level of munchkinism but not as bad as before. If it's something that can be done in game after some time has passes to allow for the tech to get better, that's cool to.

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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:34 am

I did enjoy my trip, thank you Jagger! It's left me with a (not unanticipated) pile of work to catch up on! But the trip was exactly the mind-break I needed.


Ok, I'm caught up; I will attempt to put together a post of some sort this afternoon.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:45 am

Yogismith wrote:

What looks like is allowed per RAW, Delta-Amyloid(or one of the other two) added to the Greatcoat while wearing the FFBA. The case of layered armor shouldn't apply here from what I can see. Yeah it's still a level of munchkinism but not as bad as before. If it's something that can be done in game after some time has passes to allow for the tech to get better, that's cool to.

It's debatable in some ways as it depends on if the armor clothing is considered a separate piece entirely from the set, or if it's considered part of a set. From a GM ruling perspective I'd allow both to be modified and have layering rules apply as per normal rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:18 pm

Darkon has two contacts that could provide sins. The hacker Nekosune and the AI Ubuntu McWindows. The latter also takes care of the unwanted datatrails. (Darkons Erased /24hours quality.) Thank you for the reminder though. Now let's se what Frank has to say. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:42 am

Kesslan wrote:
As a note, after some rather at times heated discussion with Gala over the whole armor modification thing and some serious digging around on the forums, most of which boiled right down to the same argument over the specific citation of Armor Clothing page 326 SR4A I came across a reference to a thread here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34632&#entry1055269

In this situation they specifically ask the author of Attitude questions in regards to the modifications. In this instance it's clear that the RAW while still somewhat debatable was poorly written regardless as according to the author:
Delta-Amyloid, Carbon-Boron and Kevlar Threading are mutually exclusive.
They can be added to 'designer armor clothing' (IE Globetrotter etc). This would exclude suits like Armor Jacket etc.
It's more or less implied that they can not be added to individual pieces of armor that make up a whole set to stack the bonuses. IE Pants/Jacket/Shirt that equals a suit you can apply the modification but it only adds the flat bonus to the total set, rather than adding to each individual piece, which is then combined for the total.

IE: If you have a jacket that adds 4/1, a shirt that adds 2/1 and pants that add 2/2 you get a set that works out to 8/4. Applying Delta-Amyloid (+3/1) would raise it to 11/5 not 17/7
See that makes the most sense to me. So here's the question - do I need to pay for the treatment to all of the components, or only apply it to one? That really becomes the difference. If it's only apply it to one - great, sign me up! If I have to apply the cost to all the components and only get the benefit for one, I'll probably skip it. I don't mind if mix and match and can only use the bonus from one, but I'd prefer not to have to buy all the other components with it, if I'm only getting the benefit once. I mean it's a wholly valid way of doing it, and if that's your choice, awesome. But it would just remove it from my wish list. Smile Granted the only one I wanted to use was a single mod on my globetrotter camo jacket, and I'm not using the rest. Though admittedly even I was a bit surprised at how the protection got with FFBA, A Balistic Mask, and a Jacket (well before I turned on the Armor capacity.....smazafrazzinarmorcapacitysmazafraza... what? oh don't mind me. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:34 pm

You could apply it to just one 'part' of the set but then only that part would benefit from the improvement. For the whole suit to benefit all components have to have the modification.

Clothing sets have their capacity based on the whole 'set' rather than individual pieces so in the case of clothing its a modification thats applied to every part regardless. Thats at least the way it's going to be until I can figure out what exactly they mean by the modification being treated as 'a rating' instead of 'an option' or how ever it was worded again. I mean technically you can add a say R3 energy resistance to the helmet and some how it magically applies to the whole body. They may mean it in that regard that it's supposed to work that way but technically such things should only apply to the actual hit location. That said it's more reasonable to combine the capacity of the whole suit + helmet and then apply the mods to it as a set, in which case you get 'even protection' which makes a lot more sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:12 pm

Has anyone else had problems registering on Invisible Castle? I've tried with two email addresses and both times I never got a email back to activate the account.

Also I'm working on a post.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:24 pm

It works fine with me.

Kesslan, would Darkons comlink be anonymous enough to call Frank Miller? Or would it make more sense to ask Chen if he can arrange a call? I just don't know from a technical side of things. Comlinks are still a bit new to me. Very Happy Although I guess Darkon as an experienced runner should know.

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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:36 pm

Technically there is no such thing as an anonymous comlink. They all give you the ID of 'who's calling' in some form or other. The closest you can get are disposables, of which the group still has some and the disposables are good for usually a few days to a week or what have you (I think baseline they are good for 48hrs but you can get longer term ones as far as I'm aware, just increase the cost accordingly).
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:53 pm

Darkon wrote:
Although I guess Darkon as an experienced runner should know.

I totally know what you're talking about!

Honestly: I am constantly running in to issues, both as a GM, and as a player, where I have to say (or be told by my players): "Look, [my character] knows this, but I really don't..."
The last time it happened, I was playing a Demo expert, and I was asked to make some tests for a fairly complicated set of tasks. Because it was in a combat situation, I wasn't allowed to make an overall test. And the truth is, I personally am not a Demo expert. So I told the GM: "I realize that [my character] is an expert in this stuff, but I'm not... Can you help me figure out what to roll?"
Similarly: I often have my players asking me Magic questions, as most people aren't interested enough to read the Magic stuff as much as I do. Again, it's a "I realize my character knows this, but I don't..." situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:02 pm

It's a common thing in games. Characters always know things that the person playing it doesn't.

Here's hoping Mikel posts soon in Shell Game.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:32 pm

The same is true for keeping player knowledge and character knowledge separate. Too often when I used to DM D&D I had to severely curb the amount of info I revealed to my players as their characters would suddenly 'and miraculously' act on information their characters had not gathered on their own.
I have seen the same happen here.

It really hinders such things as adding scenes that are not immediately and directly related to what the characters are doing because invariably the players will want to go hareing off to said scene.
That said, I would like to add that Kesslan has shown outstanding aptitude on this point.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:49 pm

I know what you mean Jagger. Most players I know are good at distinguishing between character knowledge and player knowledge. But nobody is perfect. Usually, it's not crucial enough to really impact on the game. But I can imagine how it becomes annoying with players who aren't able to distinguish at all.

And Gala, as for Magic, I have read a lot about Shadowrun magic. And still miss lots of stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:44 pm

Hey guys - I'll have a post up at some point tonight. Sorry about the wait. Kesslan, hit me up on IM later please? Thanks!

btw: if you need to get ahold of me, send me a PM and I'll give you my messenger contact info (works for YIM as well). I also have GTalk as well, if that works better.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:02 pm

Post updated for Little Star.
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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:48 pm

Waiting...somewhat patiently. Sleep
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PostSubject: heads up   Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:44 pm

Just to let you guys know, I'm going offgrid fairly soon. The wife and I are taking baby out to meet grandpa for the first time, so we're off to Saskatchewan. The farm we'll be staying at is out in the sticks, and we'll have no internet or phone signal. We plan to leave first week of August, and are not coming back until around the 20th. I will try to get into town on occasion, and check up on how things are going here, but posting from my phone will not be a huge priority what with roaming charges and out of province data usage etc. We're not going to hurry back, and will be making pit stops at various friends places en route. I don't expect to get home until the 25th or so. Kesslan, feel free to run me as an NPC if you so choose or send me off to limbo if you'd prefer. I still have a week of work before we take off, so at least I can play for a bit. Will post or PM when I'm leaving so you know for sure.

Regards,

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PostSubject: Re: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - OOC Chat   Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:37 pm

No worries 10d.

All I ask of my players is to let folk know when something is up, be it vacation or what have you. I'll NPC you as necessary and probably shut you off to limbo land a bit the rest of the time having your character do stuff behind the scenes ready to jump back in to things when your able to play again.
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