On the Job (OOC)

I would gather it has much a similar rank system to any police or security organization, even if perhaps its titles such as 'Patrol Officer' etc. I've not come across a hard list of KE rankings but I'm sure I could come up with something, and worst case for this particular scenario I'll at worst just borrow from present day police rankings.

it says in the Corporate Guide that Ares uses military like rankings, and since KE is part of Ares would they use the same system? Maybe they would use something based off of their name (Knight)?

Just a thought anways

Yes, but Ares Macrotechnology is a separate entity from KE or any of it's other many subsidiaries. If you read through the other corporations some go into more detail about operations in various other subsidiaries etc and the operating method in the parent company can be significantly different from the operating procedures in the subsidiary companies. The ranking's I've offered still fit a bit of the Ares military theme. Keep in mind Ares uses some military terminology and ranking but they don't tend to actually call the actual position by that name. The Chief Financial Officer is just that, but his underlings would refer to him as 'the CO' or 'The Commander' or 'Commanding Officer' as part of the office lingo.

If his job were posted it would be Chief Financial Officer, not Commanding Officer, because there would be more than one depending on what department it was for etc.

By the same token they don't use military ranks for everything, and in KE's case, at least for Seattle they need a system the public can follow and understand as the general public sees KE and Lone Star as 'cops' not as private security.

Ok folks, I'm going to try and get the game kicked off a bit later this week. There's been a number of delays in getting everything together including abit more research into Seattle etc so I can offer you a more true to cannon experience. On top of that there's been work, real life and more recently a funeral to attend (Which is tomorrow).

Sorry for your loss. Ready and waiting to begin this corporate advencha!

For what its worth you have my condolences.

Was interested in potentially joining. I know I'm late to the game, but I can whip something together on short notice. Let me know if you have room for another.

OK sorry agian folks, I'll have something up hopefully tomorrow so we can get the ball rolling.

Question: How strict is KE about what gear we chose to use on the job? For instance, SWAT armor offers great protection, but it's bulky as heck and restricts movement very heavily for most of us. In Mel's case, wearing the SWAT gear with helmet reduces her Agility and Reaction both by 4 because it's just that encumbering.

For some, that's not a big deal, like our magic and matrix specialists. RamJam could probably wear a tank and not feel it. But some like Adrian, Mel, and maybe Hawk might do better in something a little more nimble. Mel's got the better-fitting gear already, I'm just curious if she'd get the evil eye from her higher ups for wearing it instead of the standard issue KE armor.

Alternately, we could use one of the alternate tweaks for Armor Encumbrance form Arsenal. The "1 piece of armor doesn't encumber, even if a full suit" makes some sense. Otherwise anyone who isn't built like a brick can't wear SWAT armor without drastically reducing reaction and mobility.


Also, for anyone who hasn't already, I'd reccomend glancing over everyone's character sheets. We're a team that presumably has had training as a unit so we should have a reasonable idea of each other's work-related capabilities.


Also also, I'll be on vacation for a week starting Wednesday. Supposedly there will be internet access, so I should still be able to post. But on the chance that the wifi I think they're getting from a neighbor isn't as good as advertised, now you know why if I don't show up for a week

Well, I've already detailed this to Kesslan, but for the
sake of the team, I will describe what it is exactly that Mike brings to the squad. Mike's focus is that of an Armorer, with a rating of 7 in that skill. He has a shop for modifications and a kit for mobile repairs. He has a decent rating in pistols and utilizes the Firefight martial art, allowing him to serve as a backup combatant in mid-range to close combat. As a member of the freak squad, distinguishing features include being an ex-ganger ork-turned wageslave known for his unorthodox, but effective, modifications and two big obvious cyberarms.

Silver wrote:

Question: How strict is KE about what gear we chose to use on the job? For instance, SWAT armor offers great protection, but it's bulky as heck and restricts movement very heavily for most of us. In Mel's case, wearing the SWAT gear with helmet reduces her Agility and Reaction both by 4 because it's just that encumbering.

For some, that's not a big deal, like our magic and matrix specialists. RamJam could probably wear a tank and not feel it. But some like Adrian, Mel, and maybe Hawk might do better in something a little more nimble. Mel's got the better-fitting gear already, I'm just curious if she'd get the evil eye from her higher ups for wearing it instead of the standard issue KE armor.

Alternately, we could use one of the alternate tweaks for Armor Encumbrance form Arsenal. The "1 piece of armor doesn't encumber, even if a full suit" makes some sense. Otherwise anyone who isn't built like a brick can't wear SWAT armor without drastically reducing reaction and mobility.

Actually forgot to mention it, but assume the armour follows the rules of formfitting armour when it's a full suit in this particular case. IE Body X3 before encumbrance modifiers come into effect. Paying for actual formfitting on the other hand in this case would eliminate penalties for a standard full suit (SWAT/Heavy Armour with helmet. Does not include any encumbrance that may come about from hauling extra pieces such as shields and PPP) Yes, this still likely will slow some folk down, but I did post this as a SWAT Team scenario, meaning you are going into combat and should plan accordingly, and it's why I put in the attribute minimums that I did. I had thought of making them a little higher but at a certain point it becomes too restrictive and it was clearly stated from the get go that SWAT armour would be the standard issue. By all means you can resort to using your own armour, though if you come in what would be considered insufficient or inappropriate attire you can expect to have people around you react accordingly. Conformity is the general rule not the exception and like any security company there are dress code standards and all the rest to contend with.

And then as a final note, there's also a very good reason I made SWAT armour the standard suit, in part because I do intend to throw folk into the thick of things and spring nasty surprises on you all. That said there are different types of 'heavy armour' floating about, with the 'generic' version being listed in the main book, which also happens to offer slightly lower protection, but in exchange also slightly less encumbrance issues. Those who need a lighter suit may instead use one of those but it would have the basic features of the SWAT armour presented in Arsenal instead (Fire resistance etc). Thats ample enough to give no encumbrance to anyone with a body of at least 4, and only minimal encumbrance to those with a body of 3. From a game stand point this could reflect using standard SWAT armour minus certain plates or padding for increased mobility much in the same way there are three grades of Milspec.

Ok, that sounds perfectly reasonable. Our standard suits are Bodyx3 for encumbrance. Still too much encumbrance for Mel with any of the suits other then her personal armor options, because she relies heavily on her Agility / Reaction and appears to be one of the team's front-line assault types.

So, seeing as she'd need to get it fitted special anyway, what with needing a tail-hole / tail armor and all, I'll spring for the upgrade to full mobility (if I read your post corectly). However, I'm not sure how much that would cost. I can't find any such actual modification listed. There's actual Formfitting armor of course, but she already has a suit of that and some second-skin, too. And it does mention under the encumbrance-tweaking suggestions that such an upgrade could be purchased but it never actually expands on that idea with any stats that I can find. Not that the SR4 books are ever vague, ming you

Are you wanting to use the Mobility Upgrade from the milspec armor, or just throw out a number for the price tag? Or am I completely missing something here (entirely probable)? If all else fails, maybe just use the same price tag as Troll / Dwarf customization?

The mobility upgrade for milspec actually has very little to do with formfitting. What that modification does is actually turn the suit into a sort of exosuit with servos that help support the weight and boost your movement speed. That said I think a relatively fair base line to the added cost would be say +50% to base cost to represent the time/special materials required and so on and so forth (As well as cover say, the simple added cost of having 'designer' level armour). Much like custom created weaponry it could be treated as it's own special line of body armour that offers some bonus (In this case no encumbrance and special body moulded fittings) as normal SWAT armour, and looks a little more 'cool' as a result. And hey, it's also got the added appeal of being part of a high end brand name! (Though true designer variants with special looks would cost even more than that, much like plain clothing can easy reach 10k nuyen etc)

Full suits also don't have the actual hard armour that milspec does and thus cant support things like servos in my opinion as they are still mostly made out of high tech plates, kevlar like joint material and extra padding and impact gel coatings etc.

Milspec on the other hand can actually be turned into an out and out powersuit.

Ok so if i'm reading this right, than the full swat armor (12/10) with the helmet (+2/+2) should be 14/12, than with the form fitting rule, if im reading this right, for a body attribute of 3 both agility and reaction should be -3? or -2?

This is from SR4 core rulebook page 149:
If either of a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that his Body is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body.

BOD 3 x 3 = 9
14 - 9 = 5
5 - 2 = 3 -1 to AGI and REA
3 -2 = 1 -2 to AGI and REA
1 -3 to AGI and REA
(We are supposed to count the one leftover right?)

and someone with BOD 4 should still have a -1 right?

Probably not going to wear the helmet in any case, unless we're using tear gas or something like that, Ad's Cybereyes have most of the visual bonuses anyways.

Kesslan wrote:

The mobility upgrade for milspec actually has very little to do with formfitting. What that modification does is actually turn the suit into a sort of exosuit with servos that help support the weight and boost your movement speed. That said I think a relatively fair base line to the added cost would be say +50% to base cost to represent the time/special materials required and so on and so forth (As well as cover say, the simple added cost of having 'designer' level armour). Much like custom created weaponry it could be treated as it's own special line of body armour that offers some bonus (In this case no encumbrance and special body moulded fittings) as normal SWAT armour, and looks a little more 'cool' as a result. And hey, it's also got the added appeal of being part of a high end brand name! (Though true designer variants with special looks would cost even more than that, much like plain clothing can easy reach 10k nuyen etc)

Full suits also don't have the actual hard armour that milspec does and thus cant support things like servos in my opinion as they are still mostly made out of high tech plates, kevlar like joint material and extra padding and impact gel coatings etc.

Milspec on the other hand can actually be turned into an out and out powersuit.

Works for me. Who knows, maybe Ares is thinking of rolling out a designer label security armor and Mel's the test-bed / model. Or perhaps our resident Armorer had a crack at it. I'll scounge up the 4.6k to do the custom fittings.

As for wearing helmets... if we get into combat, I'd highly reccomend using them despite comfort issues. Otherwise you're asking the runners to call a head-shot

Not at home ATM so I can't double check SR4A but if I recall the penaly is per 2 points of armour. IE: If your 2 ballistic and 2 impact over your at -2. If your at 1 ballistic and 1 impact over your at -1. If your at 1 ballistic and 2 impact your at -2.

Encumberance is normally based on bodyx2. Form fit tends to be bodyx3 or in the case of the formfitting skin suits they rate at 1/2 their rating before encumbrance. IE the full body suit that's 6/2 or what ever only counts as 3/1 points of armour even when layered.

Two questions seeing how this is going I was wondering 2 things
1) Can I change one of my Knowledge skills Forensics from 4 to 3 to pick up architecture?

That way every time I have to point out to the group what I see from astrally projecting into a site I can give them a better understanding of what I'm talking about.

2) are going to post our characters to the finalized characters section it will make it easier for us to look at our own and other players characters?

The wording is a little vague on Encumbrance. At best, it's case of "take the worst modifier", which is what I've been doing. At worst, it's "Take penalties from both and add together". In which case Standard SWAT armor is a flat-out liability to anyone with less then Body 6 that has actual combat skills. At Body 3, they'd be suffering a -7 penalty to every Agility or Reaction-based check, including all attack and defense rolls, initiative, some athletics and infiltration skills, driving, etc.

In our case, it's more like Body 4 with the Bodyx3 houserule for SWAT armor because KE gets the good stuff. At that point you only suffer a -1 which is a fairly neglible trade-off for the protection.

I'm still going for the full custom-fitted option though. One gets used to having everything Tailored when living with a tail.

heh, with body 3 and the house rule of bodyx3, I'm still running at -4 to all that. Which means that with no skill points in most of my "action" rolls will be between "not gonna happen" to "if you pray real hard... maybe."

Good thing My guy is all about making other people do things.

Damian Blackwolfe wrote:

BOD 3 x 3 = 9
14 - 9 = 5
5 - 2 = 3 -1 to AGI and REA
3 -2 = 1 -2 to AGI and REA
1 -3 to AGI and REA

Then there is the Impact Armor meaning
12 - 9 = 3
3 - 2 = -1 to AGI and REA
1 = -2 to AGI and REA

The leftover 1 from Ballistic combines with the 1 from Impact giving another -1 to AGI and REA for a total of -4 to AGI and REA for both Ballistic and Impact armor encumbrance.

Thankfully for you mojo types, you typically need the Magic attribute, not Agility or Reaction In your case, being an armored tortoise is just fine

scawire wrote:

Two questions seeing how this is going I was wondering 2 things
1) Can I change one of my Knowledge skills Forensics from 4 to 3 to pick up architecture?

As the game hasn't really started yet, you may.

Quote :

2) are going to post our characters to the finalized characters section it will make it easier for us to look at our own and other players characters?

If you feel such would be easier for you, you may also do this.

Wreck wrote:

heh, with body 3 and the house rule of bodyx3, I'm still running at -4 to all that. Which means that with no skill points in most of my "action" rolls will be between "not gonna happen" to "if you pray real hard... maybe."

Good thing My guy is all about making other people do things.

Damian Blackwolfe wrote:

BOD 3 x 3 = 9
14 - 9 = 5
5 - 2 = 3 -1 to AGI and REA
3 -2 = 1 -2 to AGI and REA
1 -3 to AGI and REA

Then there is the Impact Armor meaning
12 - 9 = 3
3 - 2 = -1 to AGI and REA
1 = -2 to AGI and REA

The leftover 1 from Ballistic combines with the 1 from Impact giving another -1 to AGI and REA for a total of -4 to AGI and REA for both Ballistic and Impact armor encumbrance.

Right, which is why you can go with the lighter full body suit if you like. Keep in mind 14 armour is a hell of a lot of protection which is probably why it affects mobility so much. That said I've looked over the SR4A rules and it does look like it's per every 2 points of armour regardless of the source, but even then the wording is just a touch vague as it initially refers to stacked and 'non stacked' armour but in the end says flat out if your over body X2 for standard armour (Body X3 for form fit) to add the ratings from all sources together.

At a body of 5, non form fit can be stacked to 10/10 without encumbrance. Assuming full suits by default are 'basic form fit' IE Body X3 (just like milspec suits) that means that at body 5 you can go to 15/15 before seeing any penalties which easily covers SWAT armour with helmet 14/12 and still leave room for a few extras such as pieces of PPP.

At Body 4 your looking at a max of 12/12 before encumbrance, meaning under the present ruling your looking at a penalty of -1 for being 2 points of ballistic armour over your maximum.

There are lighter full body suits which rate at 12/10 with helmet you should be facing a penalty of -3 without paying for the added 'custom fitting'.

Yes it's quite a load to carry but thats what happens when one winds up in a SWAT unit and winds up below the physical norm of some one trained in combat. In hindsight I should perhaps have gone ahead and made the min body 4 like I had initially planned on. That said you can cut yourself down to a penalty of -1 by simply not wearing the helmet. If you choose to do so however, you should perhaps at the very least consider wearing a gas mask or respirator (Which can be part of your issued gear). It also makes sense that this sort of thing would be allowable especially where mages and techs were concerned since their hired on more for their special abilities/knowledge than their physical prowess (And the same could be said really of any magic user, including adepts)


I think I'll have to build a more expansive list of what all people can get as issued gear, as the list offered up really isn't the full range of equipment available on a per deployment basis.

Hmm, yeah that might be good. A basic Armory listing, essentially. In particular, the more expendable items would be of interest I think. Ammo, grenades, drones, bits of gear..

Of more pressing concern, now that I think about it, would be what our issued Commlinks are, what gizmos they have, etc. I presume they've got a spiffy firewall and some sort of team comm network, probably with sub-vocal microphones or micro-transcievers.

Instead of taking time to make up a full list, you could also set an Availablity for legal gear that we can readily requisition or get from the armory. Anything over that, we'd have to roll to see if it was on hand and ready to go. Anything we get from there would be stock versions, with custom items requiring pre-planning to fill out the paperwork, or get Mike to modify it for us.

Might be easier then rummaging through a dozen source books for what gear we can snag

As resident armorer I will try to make this easier to understand. One thing that we have been missing is that SWAT armor is technically an Armor Suit, not Milspec Armor. Therefore it is up to Kesslan whether or not military modifications are allowed and whether or not the Body x 3 rule applies. The difference between Armor Suits and Milspec Armor is not entirely clear, but Arsenal does make the distinction. It says this concerning MA:

Arsenal pg 50 wrote:

Each suit must be custom-fit to an individual, tailored to her specific body contours and range of motion. This decreases the armor’s encumbrance; the character wearing the armor is only encumbered if either armor rating exceeds the character’s Body x 3.

Also concerning MA:

Arsenal pg 50 wrote:

All these armors are intended to be worn in conjunction with the appropriate helmet to offer optimal protection, exploiting the armors’ technical possibilities to their fullest extent.

The Mobility upgrade:

Arsenal pg 51 wrote:

By integrating additional servo-motors, improved joints, and similar enhancements, the armor’s mobility is increased to allow users that are not as strong and well trained to wear it without being slowed down too much. This enhancement reduces the encumbrance modifiers to Agility and Reaction due to the worn armor by its rating [1-3], and also adds a dice pool modifier equal to its rating to all Running Tests.

Conclusion? This modification does not really apply to SWAT armor unless Kesslan decides to treat it as Milspec.
Up to GM approval, however, is Mike's ability to create his own modifications. Doing this takes time, however. Mike could easily cut a hole in the back for Mel's tail, or have his drone assistant do it. However, taking the time to modify the Kevlar and plating to decrease encumbrance which would probably require him to either find (not to difficult with his search-ready commlink) or create a plan (which he could use on all armors requiring this) and depending on the threshold (probably 8 or 12) it would take a pretty long time to implement. Of course, much of this is up to Kesslan, and might not even be practical. It might be easier for him to just develop a light SWAT armor. But now some stats.

SWAT Armor
Ballistic	12
Impact	10
Capacity	8
SWAT Helmet
Ballistic	+2
Impact	+2
Total
Ballistic	14
Impact	12

In this case, Encumbrance would equal (2 x Body - 14)/2 rounded up or (3 x Body - 14)/2 as per Kesslan's decision.
To put this into perspective, I have totaled up RamJam the Troll's armor and done the math. RamJam has a body of 9, and his SWAT Armor and Helmet combine for a total of 14 Ballistic and 12 Impact. In addition, he has other armors, including Dermal Plating R2 and Titanium Bone Lacing, a Form-Fitting Full Body Suit, and various SecureTech PPP pieces, that increase this rating by 7 in both categories, to a combined total of 21 Ballistic and 19 Impact. With standard rules, that would give him an Encumbrance rating of (9 x 2 - 21)/2 rounded up, or -2. His Agility and Reaction would be penalized by 2 each, giving him 5 Agility and 6 Reaction. If he wears 3/1 less armor, he would not be penalized. However, if Kesslan decides to rule Body x 3 for Encumbrance, he would have an Encumbrance rating of (9 x 3 - 21)/2 rounded up, or +3, giving him a positive and therefore negligible rating.
The bottom line? Unless Kesslan decides to go Body x 3, most of us will be having a hard time moving around. Use this formula:
(b x 2 - a) / 2 = e, rounded up
Where b = Body, a = Ballistic or Impact Armor Rating (whichever is higher), and e = Modifier to Agility and Reaction
Remember, add up the ratings of your implants, ST PPP pieces, and Form-Fitting Body Armor before finding a. Additional armors also add to a, but I would not suggest wearing them as they do not add to your total armor rating. Don't forget, FFBA only adds half of each of its ratings rounded up when calculating Encumbrance. I would also suggest calculating for Body x 3 as wishful thinking.

Since I'm such a doll, I'll figure Encumbrance modifiers for y'all.

Character	e if b x 2	e if b x 3
Mike	+1	+6
RamJam	-2	+3
Melehara	-6	-5
Shiny	-5	-3
Cornai	-4	-3
Adrian	-5	-3
Ruh	-4	-3

Not very promising. Here's what I'll suggest. Mike and RamJam take SWAT Military Armor, same stats as SWAT Armor, only considered Milspec and given Body x 3 for Encumberance. Mel, as leader, gets a three-part "executive" mobility-conscious armor.
This table seems to be irrevocably glitchy.
[td]Ballistic

Mobile SWAT Armor[td]
5
Impact	5
Fire Resistance 2
Mobile SWAT Form-Fitting Armor
Ballistic	4
Impact	4
Mobile SWAT Helmet
Ballistic	+2
Impact	+2
Total
Ballistic	11
Impact	11

Now, allowing for Body x 3 and giving the FF Armor the same rules as standard FFBA, the total Encumbrance would be 9, giving her a moot Encumbrance modifier with 11 B/I! For our other low-Body members:

Light SWAT Armor
Ballistic	3
Impact	3
Fire Resistance 3
Light SWAT Form-Fitting Armor
Ballistic	2
Impact	2
Light SWAT Helmet
Ballistic	+2
Impact	+2
Total
Ballistic	7
Impact	7

This supplies our 3 Body members with a moot modifier and 7 B/I at Body x 2. Modest, but effective, and maybe a little more realistic. 2 B/I could be added to to the armor if they don't mind a -1 modifier. I designed this for Body x 2 because it is something that is more easily mass-produced than the Milspec and Mobile Armors and is therefore not as custom-fitted, which is what Body x 3 entails. If you guys think I'm being selfish here since my character has such a high Body, look to Kesslan. These are totally up to his changing and modifying.

Armour from implants doesn't count towards encumbrance as far as i know btw. And certain armours like Form Fitting body suits have their own rules for encumbrance. Stacking such armour doesn't cause encumbrance the same way it does if you throw an armoured jacket over a bullet proof vest for example.

That said if you folk want to aim to pool your resources and come out with custom suits by all means. Milspec armour mods on the other hand will remain in the realm of milspec.

That said if things progress well and go far enough you'll likely wind up with it anyway.