Running it Old School (OOC)

Here is were the Running it old school out of caracter posts will be posted. Ask questions, or just chat about the run, here is where it is done...

Oh hey, a hacker adept. Don't see those terribly often.

Hopefully that's okay, if it's not, just let me know!

I posted a background on my character. Meant to have it up earlier, but C'est la vie.

yeah i tried to copy and post what i put in the want add but it did not work the way i planed

Ahm, so... I'm just gonna go ahead and post and if it turns out I'm not cleared to join my posts can be deleted by a mod or something. Don't wanna get behind. Sorry if that's too presumptuous of me!

No Durandana, we ar just getting started, so it works you joining us.

Ok, the characters are all good. i like the ideas that you have. Let's see if they work out.

I'm not a hard dreck GM, I prefer that we have fun and the story goes first. This is a game, and an interactive story at the same time. Let's do this run and we'll see if we do another one after this. I may have a break in time between posts because of my being in the military. If that happens, I will try and get another GM to finish the story, or I will email each of you when I can continue the story. I do want to finish the story, I prefer not to have stalled stories...

Besides, I want to add stories to the archives area, and i won't add them unless the story has been completed...

Hooray!

I know it's probably really cliché and you hear it all the time, but thanks so much for your service in the Middle East! Er, assuming you're not like, a Taliban fighter that is!

Just the fact that you're GMing while being deployed is amazing. Don't worry about having to take a break; if ever there was a valid reason I think that counts!

I echo that sentiment! What ever you need, in terms of time, we are all more than willing to accomodate.
And hopefully we will not pigeonhole GM required situations too often... that way you can mostly post in as desired (you know, to manage the story-line), rather than being in a position where you are required.

Yeah, we promise to be as independent as possible so we won't be monopolizing your time!

On that note, now you have to post whatever was in the data chip.

And YOU have to post your Analyze test rolls/results so that he can apply threshold, and tell us what you uncovered...

Use www.invisiblecastle.com

BTW, Ghost, how did you get so much gear over Availability 12 without buying the restricted gear quality?

Light military armor, APDS rounds, Satchel Power Packs and plastic explosives are all Avail 16, power packs are Avail 14 and then you have an avail 18 cyberware suite?

Even if you had the max of 3 restricted gear quality perks you couldn't get that much restricted gear, and on top of it, if you did you'd be well over your max positive Quality BP.

Oh, right! I forgot about the dice rollan! Okay, I reposted with a dice roll. Pretty cool how that works.

Also, I'm sure I probably went over Availability 12 too. My previous SR GM didn't care about Availability at all, thought it was stupid. So I didn't even bother learning the Availability rules.

Actually I see what it was.

Ghost's mamba character is built with more than 400bp so it's probably a character he did up for a more advanced game at some point with a higher availability limit. Which means he needs to trim it down to fit in a 400bp game.

And yeah, if you went over avail 12 without buying the restricted gear perk you need to make some adjustments (or get the perk which lets you get up to avail 20 for one piece of gear per level up to 3 levels. IE 3 pieces of up to avail 20 gear)

From a game-mechanics perspective, Availability would be almost entirely meaningless. But from an RP perspective: There is a very real sense of cost, and delay, for higher-desirability items, particularly if they are restricted by govt.'s etc.
For example: in the modern USA, compare the cost of purchasing Cocain with the cost of creating it. Another example, un-registered weapons. There is a specific cost for a registered weapon, you buy it from a registered dealer, and the govt. knows about it. But if you want an unregistered weapon, the cost is not as specific; and it changes DRAMATICALLY depending on your level of connection with your supplier. And this is in the modern US... move that forward to 2072, where a 'runner with a Deltaware Move-By-Wire 4 system is an honest risk to operations. Don't you think that the corporations will do their best to limit the supply of something as heavilly risky as that? Similarly, in their capacity to limit it themselves, they will pressure the governments and law enforcement agencies to work toward a nearly non-existent supply for an item like that.
Yes, I realize that I am working with the absolute extreme on the scale, but availability is an appropriate and reasonable reflection of the "open market's" desire to limit or remove (when possible) the supply for things that are dangerous to their style of business.

Oh cool! The only thing that went over were some of my programs. I thought for sure some of my cyberware would be over, but that's actually pretty low. There were a few things, like commlink components, that were higher than 12 but weren't Restricted or Forbidden, so they'd be possible to find and legal to own, just require some searching.

Anyway, with absolutely no offense intended, my character (and her gear) were approved by Digital Doom. If he says to change it, I'll figure something out, because the GM's call is final. But until then I'm going to leave it. The only thing to change anyway would be to cut out the program options, which makes Unwired's supposed increase in options pointless.

Having to get a perk just to get a program is stupid anyway. I can see why my old GM abandoned the availability stuff for character creation. It's useful in seeing how long it takes contacts to find stuff for you, but if you use it for more than that it just gets annoying.

Other than the theoretical discussions that I enjoy much, I am ambiguous one way or the other. I am perfectly happy following the availability rules to the letter, or stretching them, as GM requires.

But, back to the theoretical side of things:
I believe that in this case, the rules acurately reflect the real world. A new character is unlikely, without specific character quirks, which are covered in the back-story, and paid for during CG as positive qualities, to be able to access restricted gear/programs. Remember, in most cases, a new character does NOT have significant experience operating outside of the law. So, they are quite unlikely to have access to restricted equipment at all, let alone be able to convince their contacts to sell them.
Further, there isn't any reasonable way for a character to determine what the cost would be at CG for something that is heavilly restricted. Again, that is why there is a quality which you pay for at CG, which represents the back-story's capacity to circumvent those rules in some limited situations.
Also, there is the following consideration: Most 'runners wouldn't be willing to sell restricted stuff to a non-runner for any number of reasons. First, would you encourage someone to step outside of the law? No. If you had the capacity, you would do all within your power to STOP them. Second, equipping another person to do similar work as you is creating more competition... and who would willingly create competition for their way of life?

That being said, you are correct: A GM's approval is all that is required. It does behove a player to let a GM know when they have stepped outside the rules, if they did it intentionally. In my experience, a properly written back-story will allow quite a bit of "interpretation" room on the written rule.

I disagree on a number of points. First off, there's a huge difference between 'breaking the law' and actually running the shadows. Your post seems to indicate that the only way a character could do something illegal is if they're a shadowrunner. Also, "outside the law" could mean a wide variety of things! There are national laws, international laws, and each corporation has their own independent system laws on top of that.
Also:

Gala wrote:

Further, there isn't any reasonable way for a character to determine what the cost would be at CG for something that is heavilly restricted.

The extra cost is factored into the price! Look at the difference in costs between common use and hacking programs. 600¥ for a rating 6 common use and 6,000¥ for the same level hacking program. That is the difference. It costs more because it's harder to get a hold of.

And finally, there's a difference between finding illegal goods and illegal programs. There's no physical change, so all you have to do is find somewhere that has it, which would be knowledge skills and contacts. Why in the world would a character start off with a friend who is a well-connected fixer but is unable to get like, a sniper rifle, but as soon as you start playing you can go to the fixer and be like 'yo, get me a sniper!' and he'll be like 'sure thing!'? That makes no sense. Why couldn't he have done it the day before? (or month before, whatever) Yes it takes longer and it's harder to do but it's not like all these hard to get pieces of equipment suddenly materialize once the 'game world' is started up.

I am going to have to check the rules on this, but the cost difference does not actually take into account the difficulty. There is an entire set of rules written around negotiation for restricted items.
Again, I have to check the rules, but the game assumes that the cost written in the book is based on a legal reason a person would have those things. It is entirely possible for a person to have acquired a sniper rifle in an entirely legal process. It is just very very very rare that that person would then become a shadowrunner. The same goes for restricted programs. So, the listed cost is for a legal transaction. Once a transaction becomes a "black market" transaction, the listed cost becomes nothing more than a guide for the negotiations to be based upon.

Also, yes, it does just "materialize" once the game world starts up. In most cases, a beginning 'runner is NOT assumed to have been in the shadows in the past. So, any restricted equipment (programs included) would have to be accounted for in their character story. The average citizen, even today, doesn't have any real reason to have a granade lieing around in their house. That remains true right up until they become a 'runner... Then, they say "oh... i should go get myself one of these" and they do.

Gala wrote:

The average citizen, even today, doesn't have any real reason to have a granade lieing around in their house.

That's a good point, but Shadowrunners aren't supposed to come from average people. The PCs aren't even supposed to be average 'runners. They're special... that's why they're PCs.

And average citizens do have illegal stuff... I have a ton of pirated music, movies, programs, some of which are very expensive and took me way long to find where to download (including some knowledge of Japanese). I have pirated games I play on my modded PS2. The internet is a very powerful tool and all you need is time and determination and with the Matrix that's true even more so. I'm not talking about starting with Wired Reflexes 3 here... but come on, a quality just to start with some programs? I don't think you're going to be able to convince me that makes sense.


Oh, and the rules say black market goods only cost more if you want to acquire them faster. Otherwise, the price is accurate for buying them illegally.

In fact, I don't have to convince you. You are convinced yourself. Look at your own post. You said that you can get the stuff, but it takes serious time and determination. And that's just for music and games... now go find me a program that helps you hack into some serious corporate secure network. And tell me, after you have done the work and research, that it both costs no more than it should have, and that it takes no more time than getting pirated music and games.
While this is similarly true of the matrix, you also have to take into account the increased security for this sort of thing. And, there are people who live just to sell it. And they WILL go out of their way to shut down any free sources. Hell, that's true today.

As for the average 'runner not being an average person: at start, that isn't actually true. They are. And as to how this reflects the access to Black Market goods at start: your PC has just now decided to become a 'runner. Generally speaking (unless you have said otherwise in your back-story, and paid for the CG quality to conform) your very first 'run with a character is also that character's very first 'run... so they didn't have months of back-story time to put together all the illegal stuff they needed to flesh out their 'running capacity. They show up at the meet with what they've got. What they could scratch together from around their house, or borrow from friends.
Again, we are not talking about career criminals who have just turned to 'running. If they are former mob, they are going to have back-story confirmation of the fact, and they have a good reason then to take the CG quality, and get their illegal goods... otherwise, they hadn't yet gotten the chance. Nor had they needed to. And that is the whole point.

Gala wrote:

As for the average 'runner not being an average person: at start, that isn't actually true. They are.

Seriously?

We have an ex-soldier who fought against a coup attempt, an ex-Wildcat, a ninja/assassin for hire, an ex-military engineer, and an ex-secretary...

And the extra time and effort is included in the price. That's why illegal stuff costs more. It's not like you can buy illegal stuff anywhere easily. So giving an arbitrarily low price for Forbidden goods with the expectation that they'll be raised during gameplay on some mysterious scale just doesn't make any sense.

yeah thanks for the heads up for some reason every time i make a character with this generator it comes out wrong. and i have to do it all over again i use the generator because it 's easy to do that and hold my son with the other hand. im not going to be using it any more though as i keep having to do it on paper again. Any way thanks gala and kess for bringing me up to speed i think it s right now go check.

Yes, Seriously. Ex-Soldier, very normal. Ex-Wildcat... that's a little out there, but I know SEALs, Delta-Force guys, and plenty of CIA and FBI field agents who have special training. All of whom are in corporate america earning their keep in non-physical jobs... so that has to be pretty normal. Ex-Secretary, if that's not normal, what is?!? The only one that is "out there" is the Ninja... and that can be easilly responded to with the obvious answer that this is fantasy and if we didn't have people who were "out there" it just wouldn't make sense.
So, my statement stands. Beginner Runners are normal people.

As for the change in cost, I don't believe that the rules state this one way or the other, but my simplest answer (And Occam's Razor supports simplicity!!) would be that the change in cost comes solely from the lack of mass-manufacturing. Mass manufacturing reduces costs exponentially, where restricted, or downright illegal, items are generally not mass-manufactured. In general for the restricted items, they are one-run manufacturing, which is significantly more expensive (in the real world). For the downright illegal stuff, they are likely mostly hand-made. Beyond that, I doubt a cost factor of 10 is illogical for something that is a one-run manufactured item. And I KNOW that a cost factor of 10 is basically nothing in comparing mass-manufacturing to hand-made stuff.
Again, my statement stands.

I would say that Shadowrun, generally, matches their rules to a close approximation of the real world (at least in SR4). In that respect, I am very satisfied with them.